Speaker 1 (00:00):
When it comes to real estate agent training and education, I know we can agree on at least two things. The first is that it's not about the content, it's about performance and results. Second, we've pretty much been doing the exact same thing the exact same way all along. The way that I was taught is the way that I teach and on and on and on. It's time for a change. It's time to take pretty good and make it truly great. And the way that we do that is to shift from a content basis to a performance basis. This is going to give you and your real estate business a much more streamlined, inefficient process, and it's going to equip your agents not just with the knowledge that they need, but the mindset, skills and behaviors that they need to be successful foundationally and autonomously. My guest today is going to walk you through all of this.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
Her name is Carmen Morin. She's an award-winning classical pianist. She's also an educator and instructional design expert. She's also an entrepreneur. She's the fractional chief learning officer for the number one team in the world, the Justin Haver real estate team. She's also partnered with Justin, as well as John Chela in agent development.com. And by the time you get to the end of this episode, you're going to want to go check that out because that's where all of it is packaged up. You're going to love this conversation. It is going to open your mind the way that it did for me. I know you're going to enjoy this. Check out Carmen on real estate team os

Speaker 2 (01:19):
No matter where your business is today or where you want to take it, you'll get there faster and more profitably with an operating system. Welcome to Team Os, your guide to starting, growing and optimizing real estate team. Here's your host, Ethan Butte.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
Hey, thank you so much for talking t os with me today. Carmen, thanks so

Speaker 3 (01:37):
Much for having me. It's great to be here. Ethan,

Speaker 1 (01:40):
I love what you're up to. I love that you've taken your lifetime to date of skills and learnings and passion and brought them into the real estate industry, and we're going to dive into all of that around training and education for the most part. But I'd love to start where we always do, which is a must have characteristic of a high performing team. What comes to mind for you?

Speaker 3 (01:59):
So obviously the first thing that comes to mind for me is a willingness to learn. Obviously that's my background and I have a strong belief that all knowledge, skills, behaviors, mindsets, they're all things that we can learn through practice, through focused intentional training. So just that openness to learning and the openness to things you might not know, you don't know. That's really all it takes to be able to shape your outcomes in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
I didn't intend to ask this, but you triggered it for me, which is like nature versus nurture especially, and let's keep it maybe a little bit in this, especially in a real estate sales production zone. I'm sure what's natural to us are some things that we feel like we were born with. Some of that was maybe actually learned and things that aren't can be learned. Talk about the balance of nature and nurture high level.

Speaker 3 (02:44):
Oh, I'm a strong believer that it is so much that's nurture, right? 90% nurture, 10% nature, really that it starts from the point of developing your skills. So a lot of people don't realize that all skills, all talent is essentially developed through intentional training. So when you come from a background in performance training like music as I have, or athletics, really when you look at the backgrounds, there are specific things that have happened to activate that talent and shape it from the ground up. So it's really intentional when we do that in this space. So that absolutely transfers over into the real estate world that you don't just have people show up and they're going to have these skills. Obviously people will have their own natural abilities or gifts that they may have. I always say that everyone has their own unique seeds of talent, but ultimately it's the work that you need to do to bring that out. So that comes front and center when you're building your skills. But then what a lot of people don't realize is that's also the case when it comes to shaping your behavior. First of all, we are so responsive to learning behaviors and many theories we'll even argue that all of our behaviors are learned, but really again, it takes this activation and this shaping through experiences that you can really model and have intention and control over what the outcomes are for your agents.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Love it. I love the 90% number right off the top. I love that you teased that. We're going to get into performance-based education going forward because it's so fundamental to your knowledge and your approach and how you're helping people. But then also this idea of seeds. I think everyone can relate to that. I think people think about, some people think about leads or prospects or whatever, we want potential buyers and sellers. We think of them as potentially seeds that we nurture with to stay in it like good soil and sunshine and ample moisture and all the other good growing conditions. So I really appreciate that metaphor. Something you shared with me that I took notes on the last time that you and I talked one-on-One was that teaching is the mother of all leadership and the primary listener and viewer of this show is of course a real estate team leader or a brokerage owner or a team rich owner. But of course there are also managers and directors and other folks that are doing things inside the organization. There's some solo agents thinking about becoming leaders themselves, and that topic comes up all the time, things to watch out for some common challenges. So I love the way that you bridge teaching and leadership there, and I would love for you to speak to that quote.

Speaker 3 (05:05):
Oh, teaching is truly the mother of all leadership. And when you think about what teaching is, it's essentially transferring of course knowledge to other people, but also your vast experiences, your skills of discernment, also your perspectives to the world. So there are so many things that just by doing that and doing that authentically and really pouring into people, people know first of all when you are genuinely wanting what's best for them, and as soon as you switch to a teacher, a mentor student or master student relationship, which by the way is the history of most teaching, it's only in recent decades that it's become this classroom learning for centuries. It was always about that master student relationship of always having that mentorship and that active feedback. So when you build a relationship in that way, there's such a genuine connection that you are not only growing alongside them, but you are genuinely invested in them. And that's very different than the business management methods of what does it mean to be a leader when true leadership comes from that mentorship relationship that you have with parents, people in your community and of course master that master apprentice partnership in all areas of business.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
I love the callback to the history of education and it makes me think about a zone that will hit going forward in this conversation, which is some of that was done, some of it was done in small groups, some of it was done in arenas, and so we'll talk about some of the differences between those things, but I really, really appreciate this kind of callback to how we've done it forever. I also appreciate this modern context of the business context in particular of we're actually training and teaching and coaching up managers, not leaders per se, and one of the implications of management, certainly in the past century of it is that essentially treats people like commodities rather than people we learn and grow with. You're moving for folks that are listening only, she's nodding your head. I would love to hear what you're thinking about.

Speaker 3 (07:05):
Yes, you just hit the nail. So on the head, the idea of business management managers is something that we invented. It's not actually a natural part of the learning process. So it's kind of taking one piece that might be a component of leading and guiding others and making it its own role, which of course it's a very valuable and important role, but when you think of your best managers, even though they have that title, really it's a mentorship role. It's guiding them. It's helping the learners to see things that they might not be able to see on their own. There's so much more to it than what we're trained in the business world of what management is defined by. Right?

Speaker 1 (07:41):
Yeah. Okay, so we're going to walk through over the next, I don't know, let's just say 20 to 30 minutes a structure that this was my simplification, trying to make sense of what you were able to impart in a short conversation about the structure of training in particular. And I'll lay it out, I'll have you react to it, but I'm introducing this to folks watching and listening as kind of a framework for what we'll be doing over the next several back and forth exchanges. If we're designing training, what is the goal? What does great look like? What do we want to achieve? Perhaps even what is the outcome achieve through the practice of what we're teaching and training? So what's the goal? Then it's where are we today? Where is the learner today? Where's the person we're training up or coaching up or mentoring? Where are they today relative to that goal? And then we design a process to close that gap. So do you still feel like I captured it in a way that makes sense?

Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah, I mean I think that's a great way to just dive into it and then let's see what kind of comes up in each area, different pockets in each of those. So for example, you started with what is training and how do you decide whether or not it's successful? Ultimately, each organization and each leader gets to decide how are we going to measure if this training is successful in education? So when we think of learning and education in general, it's overarching in all industries and actually in all things that we do, the way that we build our relationships, our personal care, everything. So again, you get to decide what makes that successful. So that typically is the first step. So whenever you go into an organization or any kind of educational program or training program, your first stage is that kind of analysis where you look at things and you really get clear what is your measure of what you want to achieve.

Speaker 3 (09:22):
And typically what you have, especially in the business world, is you'll have your OKRs and your KPIs that come up right away. It's like this is what we're tracking and this is what we're really focusing on. But then when you start to break down what else feeds into that? Then obviously they're going to be those less discreet things that can be measured in different ways, like overall enthusiasm and engagement that obviously ties into retention, different things that might not be so cut and dry in how you measure them, but ultimately you get those all on paper. Typically what we find when we do that and we break that down, is that most training programs, especially with the Justin Haver real estate team, they had an extensive training program already in place. But what it was was something that was very much content centered instead of being learner centered.

Speaker 3 (10:07):
So a content centered approach when you're developing it that way, it's basically when all the leaders and the managers get in the room and they say, okay, what do they need to know? What do they need to do? Build a module on this and this. So that's very much about the content and everything else is organized around it versus when you switch to something more performance based, then you're going to have a learner centered approach, which is all about what do these learners have to first of all be able to do? Where are the gaps in their own performance? What is the knowledge that needs to fill those gaps? What's the context that they'll experience it in? What are the past experiences that they're bringing into this scenario and the environment? So you take everything in the learning environment, which includes when we think about learning, we don't just think about knowledge, we think about skills and behavior.

Speaker 3 (10:49):
So the learning environment is everything that's a structural element that makes that experience happen. That's everything from where they take the training, what resources they'll have, the technological backgrounds, all those things. So it's a very different approach to what in many ways can actually be the same content. So from there, obviously then you are able to design what you want your outcomes to be. So if you are focused on that performance based model, you're specifically tracking what are those gaps in their performance and what do they need to experience to be able to cross 'em?

Speaker 1 (11:22):
Follow up here, whether an organization has eight agents or 85 agents or 285 agents, they've taken a content-based approach. They've broken down the development, nurturing and conversion of a relationship. Let's say in general, they've broken it down into all of its requisite steps and what did I need to know? How did I do this? And I'm starting to document how I used to do it. Now I'm teaching it, and then at some point, maybe if we're big enough, I have a manager who's teaching this content. So this is the way that I'm asking all of these questions. I think that's the status quo today. Yes, I think that's what we're talking about. Where do we want to get, you just gave us a very good picture of where we want to get. Yes, we want to actually change the way we're training the content and teaching the content, and we're probably going to be setting a different goal.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
In general, I would think the goal is did we deliver all the content to this person? Yes. Are they moderately productive in their career? Did they close three transactions in their first nine months? We want them to or whatever the case may be. So with all of that, let's go to that goal setting. It's like we've been here, but we want to go there, and I'm going to ask this in a very specific way, which is how does this team leader benchmark? Where have we been with regard to this outcome, K-P-I-O-K-R, whatever, and where do we want to go through training in order to design training that will help us move from here to here is let's say an average number, an average activity score, performance score or achievement score or whatever the case may be. How important is it for the agent themselves to understand that gap as a teacher is setting a goal for a training program that they're designing? How important is the student in that context and their own awareness of it?

Speaker 3 (13:05):
Yes, very important. So I'm going to work my way, way backwards. There are a couple things that you mentioned. Thank

Speaker 1 (13:09):
You for keeping track of all that. I

Speaker 3 (13:10):
Talk to you time, I think about all, but just catch me if I didn't. Yeah. So first of all, very important, clear feedback is extremely important in teaching, and that's a big piece. Again,

Speaker 1 (13:19):
Throughout

Speaker 3 (13:20):
The process, throughout the entire process and all teaching. If you think about the best coaches, I want you to think about a coach. Okay, so a couple things. We're talking about performance-based versus knowledge-based. So I'm actually going to go back to this. So a knowledge-based approach is that content centered because the goals are different. The goals are you're deciding that they pass. If they finish their modules, they pass if they memorize these facts or they pass if they finish this quiz. So the goals themselves, when you do a content centered approach by default, they sort of end up all around the content. Then if you switch to performance based and the goals are around the learner, then it will shape everything else that you're doing. So that's the first differentiation, the first distinction there. And then for you to know that a knowledge-based approach, when you think there's kind of a layer, it's called the learning pyramid.

Speaker 3 (14:06):
There's many different names for it, but there's a layer of how deep people learn and how much retention they have that lecture-based learning. So that knowledge-based exchange, that's the most shallow way that we can learn. So the least that we're going to retain and the least that we're going to actually apply and experience things. So when you move now into that performance base and you're saying once you switch to what's around the learner, it all becomes about their experiences. So making sure that they are totally aware of where they stand and what they're working towards is so key. So again, switching from knowledge base as someone at the front of the classroom, kind of talking to all the students versus performance based, I want you to think more like a sports coach. So if you think of a basketball coach on the side of the court and if he's watching people practice, and if you were to watch a sports practice, you'd see the coach saying constant little tidbits of feedback.

Speaker 3 (14:58):
So they'd be doing that and don't pause, look here, do that. So it's always that constant engaging feedback. They don't let them practice for a week and then at the end of the week give them this big formal assessment and tell them to go back and try it again. It's these constant drops. So that first of all, in terms of shaping talent and shaping output, we are constantly collecting this feedback and making adjustments in anything performance based. But then when you talk about things like training behavior, a big piece that comes up and that we incorporate a lot are things like gamification. When you think of gamification, sometimes people can think silly childlike games that you're going to turn everything into some sort of a game. Gamification is really anytime that you make a really clear set goal, you have clear feedback along the way to reaching that goal.

Speaker 3 (15:42):
You have kind of a clear point and you can understand where you are now versus where your target goal is. And so much about our ability to be challenged and to challenge other people kind of ties into that bubble right there. So for us to train our agents, we have to first of all respect that they're partners and collaborators in this business of ours, but we also have to respect and celebrate their autonomy. So even though we have a far more structured training program now than we did previously with a knowledge-based approach, it is very much one that gives them the parameters that they will need to bridge those gaps, but also the flexibility to be creative and have their own autonomy in their own learning, which is hugely important, especially in adult education. There are different ways that you teach. So pedagogy is teaching children, andragogy is teaching adults, and it's the science of art of both. But when you move into teaching adults, they're learning because they want to be able to apply it in the real world, and you want to be an active collaborator in that, not just telling them what to do because they're trying to gain your approval. So all that is a long answer to say it's extremely important that they're constantly involved and aware and collaborating with you in their own growth and development.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
That's great. I appreciate especially the call out to autonomy because ultimately the goal of all of this is to send them off to do the thing, and maybe we have systems and we certainly should to a point, and this is going to lead to my next question to a point we want to be able to inspect is this happening? Is this happening to satisfaction? Is it's happening driving the result that we want to see, et cetera. What I'm wondering is how long are we staying over someone's shoulder? So we design multimodal training, A lot of it is experiential and performance based. They're almost ready to go out of the nest and go do the thing on their own in an autonomous fashion. How long are we kind of staying alongside them and hovering them? And I don't know if there's a magic number, but there's something people will say something like it takes 80 days to form a new habit, for example. Is there training parallel here as someone is already thinking about how to get off content base and go to performance base? This I think is an important part of it.

Speaker 3 (17:58):
Yeah, so first I'm just going to say just one of the words that caught is that we'll always aim not to hover and we're not over their shoulder, and I know that you were saying that, but it's been really intentional for us that we are looking at that collaborative process that it's never about that they're trying to get our praise. It's always that we're building that up in themselves. Good. So that is a description nuance. Yes. So our onboarding process of, we have what's like an intensive intake, we call it our foundations program is a 90 day cycle. And the reason for that is because first of all, we have key milestones that we've outlined for them to be able to hit during that time, but we don't just want them to hit the milestones. We don't want to do things at a surface level, which again is another, there's kind of layers to what you can do.

Speaker 3 (18:38):
You can start with a knowledge based approach and then that won't build your skills. If everything that you do is kind of in a lecture based discussion, then you're not actually going to build skills. Then you typically see the next step, which is where people are building skills. So they've incorporated some role play, they've incorporated practice, but none of it is the type of practice that actually goes deep and really not only trains the skills to a high level, but in order to train skills to a high level, you have to be able to dig into their behavior and helping them become aware of what types of behavioral responses they'll have and what kinds of things they'll experience and training them in those pockets of resistance. So there's kind of different levels of those performance gaps. So that's why we've chosen the 90 day option. There are many different ways that you can do it, depending on also how much content and material you do need to cover those key milestones. So obviously the Justin Haver team, they have a very robust training program and requirement already. So obviously to get these key ones and then be able to go deep with them, we did the 90 day runway.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
Are there any kind of common issues in the way? I really think you nailed the most common one, which is probably just the content basis versus the performance basis. I think a lot of people will do things like role play, but I don't know that it's maybe done in the right order or the right amount or often enough or these kinds of things. Any other kind of common things? I know you're engaging with other folks outside the Justin Haver team on similar themes and topics, whether it was what you walked into and started building and adjusting inside the Justin Haver real estate team or whether it was anywhere else as you move about the industry, any other common issues with the mindset or the actual execution of real estate training? I am asking you to generalize, but also to do it off your own experience.

Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yeah, I mean, first of all to say I have great respect for everyone in the industry. I mean, it's a very demanding, fast-paced dynamic industry. All of these things that we know, and of course being able to lead other people in this type of space is very challenging. So I definitely recognize there are many different ways to do these things. Definitely, yes, knowledge to performance base. The other awareness that I think is really key in any performance based field is that I always like to point out that realtors and real estate professionals, they are a solo self-directed discipline. So this is different than something like a group discipline where you have a whole basketball team, you have five players, and ultimately their final score at the end is how they all execute it together. But our solo self-directed disciplines, which is classical piano, golf, tennis things where ultimately the final score relies only on you and your own output.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
So when you have a discipline like that, of course all disciplines require great respect, but when you have a discipline that is a solo self-directed discipline, there's a whole other component that comes into play in a deep way when it comes to internal processes. So the ability is can you get up and do your practicing? Will you motivate yourself to practice? Will you get that drive from within to practice when there's no one else on the field? It's really just you and what you're doing behind the scenes. So a big piece that I notice especially in this field is that perhaps it's not recognized that that is a whole other component that needs to be trained. So we will bring people on, sometimes there can be a sink or swim mentality of let's throw them into the systems and see who rises up as our star kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
But again, I always go back to these sports analogies that would be putting someone on a hockey team and throwing them on the rink without skates and without a stick, and then blaming it on their character when they aren't successful. So I personally, from an educator standpoint, from a leadership standpoint, I strongly believe that it's our responsibility to give them the proper tools and the effective strategies that they need so that you've done everything that they need to be set up for success. So again, there are many different mindsets around that, but I know personally and on the team, we really believe in, Hey, you're taking this risk with us. We are going all in and taking this risk with you. So if you've kind of fulfilled what we think you need, then we're going to go all in with that.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
You shared this idea of the individual nature of it versus the team nature of it. I would love for you just to double back really quickly, are there any other differences between teaching children and teaching adults?

Speaker 3 (22:56):
Yes. I mean there's huge differences, and you're absolutely right that all of us, when we think of learning and teaching, and this explains a lot of what you see, not even just in the real estate world, in all corporate training, in lots of development, we all revert back to that classroom learning again, not realizing that it's a very passive form of learning that was designed that way for many different reasons. Aside from what's best for the learner, when you're working with kids, you are able to really shape their perspectives, and you are in many ways starting with sort of that blank slate. You can say, this is how it is. Here's an experience that kind of reinforces what I said you were going to experience, and here's how we can shape it together. When you're working with adult learners, it really is about switching to this learner-centered approach.

Speaker 3 (23:40):
So there's a saying in adult education and andragogy is that the experience of the learner is just as valuable as the experience of the teacher, and you're meant to be more walking alongside them in comradery and collaboration, also in responsive feedback as opposed to having a structure of saying, this is how it is, which is, I mean, in many ways what we need to do with kids, they do need to learn all those basics that we can say, this is how it is. But when you are an adult learner, it's very important that you're collaborating and that you're equal parties. It's also very important that you're thinking about the context because typically in adult education, you want to think about how they're going to apply it to their life. It's not about saying, you need to learn this to pass a test. Frankly, when we are all adults, we're like, I don't really need to do anything.

Speaker 3 (24:28):
So it's like if you want me to do something, it has to have real, I have to have a real understanding of how it impacts me. And so that comes back to actually your question of how important is it for people to have a clear awareness of receiving that feedback at all times? And that's why it's huge. I mean, you've got two pieces of that. When you're an adult, you don't have to learn anything. But then you've got the other piece of self-realization and our natural and deep innate need to reach the highest potential for ourselves. And when you fulfill their basic needs, when we all have our basic needs met of our food, our warmth, our security, ultimately what we are open to is that we all want to keep learning. People are not lazy. I always say that and I go, I know as soon as I say that, people go, oh, I'm thinking of someone that's lazy.

Speaker 3 (25:14):
But really laziness, apathy, shutting down when challenged, those are all learned behaviors that would've been taken forward from some other experience. So when you're working with adults, it's easy to write them off and say, oh, this isn't the talent I'm looking for. I want to get new talent. But it's just like how we tell our agents it's not the leads. It's not the leads that are our problem. You can't just say, I need better leads and then I'll do better in my business. No, it's not the leads. What can you do with the leads and how well can you shape them to help them be successful, which is what you need to be successful.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
So that reminded me of a challenge you made me think about earlier, which is like, okay, why aren't more people doing this? One? I think it's awareness and understanding, and two, it feels like it takes more effort. I mean, when we break down the content we need, we make the content we need, we get people into the room and we deliver all this stuff, and we said we delivered all this stuff and we have some kind of a little test and they pass it with an 80% and we say, good, go do the stuff.

Speaker 3 (26:12):
They basically summarized all training that I've seen so far. Yes.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
Yeah. Okay. So you inherited a very high quality version of something like that when you stepped into the just and haver real estate team. And I say that because it's been very effective for them. It's the number one exp team in the world and a top team in the world in general. So it's obviously successful, but it has some things that I would assume that at this point, I think you've been formally inside the organization for this entire calendar year to date. As we record this, I assume you're already seeing some wins and benefits, but I'd love for you to walk back to the initial conversation about, I hear you, Carmen, this is all very interesting. Actually, you know what, let's try to start implementing this. What do you think about that? What were some of your initial thoughts about coming in and reviewing what was there as you committed, sized it up and scoped it? What kind of goals did you set for yourself in reviewing and improving and tweaking? And this is one of those classic, we're fixing the engine while we're driving or we're fixing the plane while we're flying. It's not like you're not continuing to train agents throughout this work that you've been doing. So I'd love for you to tell that story in as much detail as you prefer. Yeah,

Speaker 3 (27:24):
Absolutely. So I mean, one of the first things I'll lead with is just some of the results we've seen even after our first iteration of that 90 day cycle. We have agents that have sold more in those first 90 days than ever before. So someone selling 12 homes in their first 90 days, that's 30 days that don't have access to leads. We have agents that were part of the team beforehand and agents beforehand, and they three XD their conversion after going through this training system. So that's on top of the things that we're also measuring and paying attention to. Things like energy, enthusiasm, engagement, overall comradery because of the way that we've structured the groups together. But another misconception that I want to touch on is that I think many people believe that it's going to be more work to implement it this way. So it does take intention, but just like all things, the smarter you work, the easier it is.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
So this next again, came in with already a robust training system that they had at the Justin Haver real estate team with lots of knowledge, lots of material that was already becoming successful, first of all, as Justin and kind of the mindset there, it's always a matter of how can we make this better? Anytime that there's a milestone reached, it's like, Hey, nobody get too satisfied, because that means that there's always a new horizon that we can work on. So first of all, that's the mindset that we're in. And when you asked what does it take to be a high performance team, that will always be the top of my list for all things, all fields and all disciplines. But then the misconception can be that, okay, this is going to be so much more work and how can we possibly do this iteration that we have has much less content in it than the knowledge based, right?

Speaker 3 (29:03):
Because I want you to think about what happens when you have a knowledge-based approach, and let's say you want to add more, you want more for your agents or from your agents, what do you do? You add more content and it's like it's a new webinar for you to watch, it's a new masterclass for you to watch, but the delivery and the modality is the same. So you're not actually changing the performance, you're just adding more content that they have to consume and memorize and kind of have theory around. So when you switch to performance based, it becomes far more streamlined because what happens is you focus only on what they need to bridge those performance gaps and the knowledge that you is only knowledge needed that applies to those gaps. So that's the first rule of thumb in the design is that you don't actually just say, here's knowledge, here's knowledge.

Speaker 3 (29:49):
You always have to think you're working with cognitive load theory. So if you give too much information, more is not more people are going to shut down. So that's the first step is that it's much less work than actually what was going on before and much less to manage. The other piece of that is because we got intentional, the way that we designed this is very much cohort based that incorporates the asynchronous learning that's in the curriculum modules that we have in our platform, but also all the other components that we're building out that have to be live and kind of different methods of teaching. Because we've changed to that structure. We've drastically improved operations. We're able to train and support far more agents than we could in previous years because before it was all these quizzes and then what are their skills and where are they now we are able to bring on, we're bringing in 10, 15 agents every single month, and we're able to do this in a very streamlined way and still in a very focused way.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
So that's kind of how we're starting this first iteration currently in its form. We could be bringing on more, right? We're doing some iterations and some adjustments, but what it does is it streamlines your operations. It's lowered costs because again, we're able to streamline our own human resources of when we're really intentional about what needs to be focused on at each step. It's not a matter of, again, just hiring more people to supervise and be a part of it. It's about being really intentional about who's in what seats and what their roles are. So that's a hope to answer your question is that people will think it's a lot more work actually. It's just like anything else working smarter.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
I think a lot of folks are super excited about the idea of let's just set everything else we talked about and you shared with us aside for just a second and say, I can be more efficient with my training. I can onboard more people without adding more people. I can onboard more people and make them more effective. As you offered a three x, you offered a, we're getting them to basic proficiency, faster type stuff, getting them actually productive faster. Where is that savings? And I guess I'll speak to what seems obvious to me based on what you shared, which is, okay, if there's more stuff to teach, we'll just make a new module, make a new webinar, make a new thing, hold a new, now we have a new additional monthly meeting that's required for this large chunk of people or whatever the case may be. It's just more, more, more, more, more. And if we're never kind of pairing down or trimming back some of that stuff, it's just more to administer, it's more to test, it's more to develop, et cetera. And it's just more and more and more and more. Whereas this is less but better and because it's more geared toward what we actually want.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
And on top of that, so it's geared towards what actually think about what moves the needle, what matters. So there are specific points that we've been able to identify in our business where opportunities drop or not drop, but they fall off because they have been dropped because of a lack of skills or a lack of awareness. So obviously focus on those first and you're very intentional. But a big piece of it is yes, in human resources, in leadership, in having all of the support staff, it would've taken to individually kind of track and work with these skills in a way that's not streamlined by streamlining the entire process, you have very clear processes that are asynchronous. So what I mean by that is that you don't have to do it at any set time. They can do it on their own time, so they have very clear structure of what they need to be doing, but then very clear and intentional pockets of when they do need that feedback and where they do need a member of the leadership team to get their eyes on something and give them specific guidance around something previously.

Speaker 3 (33:21):
And what I'm seeing in a lot of organizations is it's kind of like you've got your leadership and they're helping over here, they're helping over there, they're listening to presentations, they're overseeing role play and scripting. If you focus and get intentional about what part of that actually needs to be live training, then that's where you not only lower your costs and lower the number of people that need to be trained to learn the system, but you make it far more effective because everyone's very focused on the intention of what they need to do as opposed to just putting out fires. And the other piece of that obviously is a lot of what we're seeing is not necessarily having clear ideas in your organization and in your mind and in your tracking about what qualifies as strong skills. Right? It is saying, okay, that's good now

Speaker 1 (34:05):
Qualitatively.

Speaker 3 (34:06):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So there's those formative assessments, which is what you're doing as you go. You're constantly helping them as they're growing, giving them feedback. But then those summative assessments are those kind of pass fail. What is our requirement? What is our clear cut standard that I could say any agent on the Justin Haver real estate team will be able to do this in these three scenarios. And we know exactly how that translates to these other six scenarios because it's all mapped out. So it is, it's that work upfront, but it's already paying back in dividends halfway through the year.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
That's awesome. Okay. You introduced something that I wanted to talk about anyway, but for efficiency's sake, and this might not be the best way to do it, I'm going to throw a few ideas out on the table and I would love for you to pick 'em up and make a little bit of sense for people again, as they're looking to prioritize and revamp different sections of their training until it becomes more in this performance based direction overall. And that is you introduced live and in person versus live and virtual versus asynchronous. Are we doing this all at the same time or can I do this on my own? And if we're doing this at the same time, do we have to do it together in person or do we have to do it virtually? How do we parse those things out? And then part of what I heard in your last response too, part of the efficiency is some of what we used to have to do in kind of a one-on-one setting, one-on-one weekly or biweekly meetings or coaching sessions, designing some of that activity and feedback and training into the program itself, which adds a massive amount of efficiency.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
So I'll also then throw into what do we do live? What do we do virtual? What do we do asynchronously? What do we do one-on-one, what do we do in the small group cohort altogether? Are we getting together to listen to one person's call that was successful and one person's call that wasn't successful as someone is breaking down these things that you've been introducing to say, okay, what do I have in place and what do I want to tweak and how, do you have any recommendations about those multiple categories? I just introduced to you in terms, but I don't know if those are modes or methods or I don't know the right term for these characteristics,

Speaker 3 (36:17):
Power training, so like delivery methods. So there are many different layers to it, but I think to simplify it, the clearest way and the simplest way would be take anything that was knowledge based. Well, first of all, the simplest way is to always think about what's the performance gap and work your way backwards. But in answer to your question, what's going to end up being the asynchronous content is what was knowledge based. So what's left over that they have to learn, but they can read it at home, they can watch your videos presentation while they're cooking dinner, let them do that. There's no reason why they need to sit in the training room and listen to you say this in that way. So we have our agents prepare that in advance that they've always accessed that. Then we do all of our live training in cohorts.

Speaker 3 (36:59):
That's the other big piece is that there can be a misconception that one-on-one is higher quality than cohort training. And there are still components that we do one-on-one to be clear, and I'll differentiate what those are. But as far as your training, anytime that you have mixed levels of experience and a mixed group, it's a huge benefit to the learning because the people who are more advanced, they have the opportunity to model to those who are less experienced and the people who are less experienced are going to be listening to their peers and learning from their peers sometimes even more than they're listening to the teacher. So we do all of our training, either that asynchronous learning or the live cohort based training, and those are very specific, but then there are also many different components. So we have obviously great access to coaches and friends and colleagues throughout the real estate industry.

Speaker 3 (37:47):
So those are obviously going to be a fantastic virtual experience where they are live, but then they're going to be virtual. So that is an exception where it makes sense to get on that Zoom call and get that information. But what we always do then is instead of just having that as kind of, it's always going to be motivational informative, we always attach what's the action that's going to come from that? So it's always taking that knowledge and making sure that, okay, are you actually applying it? Then there's different layers of learning things like community support. So a lot of the things in how we've even designed what we call our milestones in the training, it's done in a way where it will incorporate the student seeing each other's performances as well. So you always think that it has to be this direct line of the student, the teacher, the student, the teacher, but actually it's more like a web where they should be able to have these resources and see where their peers and their classmates were progressing and the feedback that they were getting, and then they're able to incorporate their own skills into that.

Speaker 3 (38:49):
So there's lots of different components in there. Then obviously we have specific times and areas when it is necessary that we have to do one-on-one feedback that obviously comes into play because we are measuring our agent's performance, and then obviously when we recognize that they might need more help or added support, then those are the people that might be getting more focused intention. But again, it's all very kind of organized and designed.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
I would love for you to share advice for two specific topics, and I guess they're both kind of in the same zone, that being we're a team that isn't necessarily bringing on new agents to the organization at even a fraction of the rate that you all are. And so that is how often should I retrain on some of this stuff or how do you layer more advanced stuff? When you look at all, I assume you probably looked at all the content, I'm sure you knew a lot about real estate, but you were also alerting a lot too. You looked at all of the content and it was already prioritized at some level. So you package the best stuff in a smarter way, a more efficient way, a more effective way in those first 90 days. How do we handle advanced training topics? Where do we put those down the road and do we retrain on known topics? And if so, why? How? I assume it's driven by a gap, like, oh, this person is not performant in this way, or I've noticed that these four people are not performant in this way. So let's kind of hit that again, but am I thinking about that the right way?

Speaker 3 (40:26):
Yeah, no, you are. And I just want to touch on that some interesting things there too. So we were also very intentional with this iteration about who we rolled it out to. So we actually didn't roll it out to the entire team all at once because you're building, it's a beta program and you're kind of shaping things as you go. But we were very intentional about rolling it out and then rolling it out in such a way that obviously our seasoned veterans, our original agents, they're going to eventually have access to it. So first of all, the program itself is all based around foundational skills. So anything that you do, whether it's playing the piano, playing basketball, being a real estate agent, everything can basically be broken down to foundational skills, foundational mindset, but also foundational skills. And then the more advanced you become, the more you can layer on top of those same foundational skills or you can combine them together or you can do them in a sharper more advanced way.

Speaker 3 (41:17):
All these different things. But it all comes down to foundations. So that's where it all starts. So obviously this intake, this 90 day intake is all about us training our agents at the foundational level. But when you think in that way already you're moving from thinking that unit one, unit two, unit three, if you notice just even the question of it was posed, how do you take unit eight and do you retrain them in unit eight and move it back to unit two? Right, totally. But we're not thinking in that way. I'm a student of the system. Yeah, no, no, and that's perfectly normal. That's perfectly normal. We all are, right? And so it, it's really just that awareness of am I focused on that that's further down the line, or is it something that's a deeper version of something that we're doing at the foundational level?

Speaker 3 (41:58):
Right? So that's the first distinction. But I just want to point out for how that kind of rollout has happened is that we introduced this very effective and very impactful training where our new agents we're getting these incredible results alongside our seasoned agents. And the natural thing that happened, because our entire team is of a beginner mindset. I mean, we've just got such an incredible group of agents, Justin and the leadership team, they've been very intentional about who comes on the team is when you have these seasoned agents who have been doing this for 20 years, they've been our top producers year after year, and they're hearing the other agents and they're going, I want in on this. I want to learn this. Where did you learn that? I want to learn about this. So then it had this natural way of them becoming incorporated into the training, and then of course we rolled it out to the whole team.

Speaker 3 (42:44):
So all that to say is it's not a matter of bringing another unit and moving it earlier or retraining it. You're always going through in cycles in this type of training. So when you go to the advanced level, then, so basically once they're done, they're foundational milestones. We make it very clear this is your foundation and you're going to be building on this for the rest of your career. There are going to be specific things that might happen in different markets and different things that are coming up just in the world that we say, Hey, you know what? Our agents need skills on this, so that's obviously going to be a focused series of training that we're going to do. But then if you take those foundational skills and you think of just all the things that they'll need to do as they advance and as they become more experienced, you always frame it back to the context of how does that relate to your foundation?

Speaker 3 (43:26):
Because ultimately all of the things that we've trained them are all about adaptable skills that can apply in many different scenarios. So that's one piece that I think we haven't touched on that we should, which is it's always important, and this comes into your question about how important is it to keep the learner aware of everything that you're doing. It's very important that they always understand the why and the strategy behind what you're teaching. It's never, that's the difference of teaching an adult versus a child. You teach a child and you say, do it like this and you'll be done, and here's a cookie. And adults we don't, not only do they not want to learn that way, we don't want to teach them that way because they are other adult human beings with their minds and lives of their own. So everything that we do teach them, we also teach them the strategy behind it, not just, here's what you would say in this scenario, but do you know why we said this is what you should say and here's why, and here's another version of what you can do.

Speaker 3 (44:18):
So you're always learning the intention behind it because ultimately what we want is for them to have these skills that they understand and then they can carry forward and develop on their own. So that ticks the box, obviously of skill building. But when you think about the deeper, more meaningful work, you are building that autonomy. You are building that trust where we're not just saying what you should do, we're saying, Hey, this is what we have data on, but we understand what we can share with you and here's how you could do it, and then go ahead and be creative because once you know the intention, you're going to make it your own. And so that is that piece that comes back to how it advances. And then ultimately, any skill that we're building, it's a lifelong journey. Justin will never say, for example, that he knows it all and that it's a done, right? So it's like no matter how far advanced you are, if you're always coming from that beginner mindset, you constantly aware that there's more you can learn that's going to layer on top of what you've already experienced.

Speaker 1 (45:15):
There's so much here that I love. I love, I'm still stuck on this web idea and this idea of having cohorts of different people with different skill levels, which I think is counterintuitive perhaps to some people because it's counterintuitive to the system approach that I've been so well trained in that I've been blind to a little bit of what you've been sharing, but it's starting to break away for me, and I hope it is for people watching and listening to this web piece. I think about what that does for the culture. I think about this beginner's mindset that you're talking about. I think about the idea of we're talking about the foundational skills and yes, we might need to do a one-off course and run everyone through it or run some of these people through it by course, I mean like a training program on a particular topic or to handle a new condition or to deal with some new legislation that requires us to do this thing in a different way.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
But tying it back to what matters to them and tying it back to the foundation itself, giving it some context, it all makes so much sense, and I just think it creates this culture of thriving. It's one of the reasons I'm so excited and honored to host a show like this and to host people like you on it, is that this can't happen outside of something that looks or feels like a team or a team rich. It could, but I think there's so much more potential momentum behind it because of this kind of cultural component. It also makes me think about it. I mean, you mentioned a couple of sports analogies, and it's not like someone says, okay, I can dribble the ball. I'm done practicing dribbling or Exactly, I made 96 out of a hundred free throws, so I'm never going to shoot him again until game time.

Speaker 1 (46:45):
It's like this foundational thing is a thing. And I can see Justin going through one of these courses, even though I have no idea how many homes he's personally sold, but I can see him going through some of this foundational training himself and feeling like he's still learning things and part through revisiting some of these skills, but in part through performance and practice, but also by revisiting his relationship and his point of view about particular activities and topics through the eyes and the experience of working with other people in this kind of web. So I know I said a lot there. Does it trigger anything for you, and is there any kind of words of encouragement or advice or recommendations for someone who's like, oh, okay, this is a thing. I'm now going to prioritize this and I'm going to just really work on this in the back half of 2024,

Speaker 3 (47:32):
I think many words of encouragement are that's when you think intuitively how you just said that all these lights are going off, and of course that makes sense that it needs to be a web and you don't learn how to dribble a ball and then someone gives you a certificate and you're a licensed ball dribbling certificate. It's just like, of course you're just going to keep going and experiencing it. And I think that's the thing is obviously my background is instructional design, so I can kind of come with the terminology and say, this is how it's all pieced together. But ultimately what you just got to as well, Ethan, is intuitively it makes sense that instead of flip it, that instead of that you are already in this knowledge-based approach. If you actually strip away your school experiences and you think about the things that you're great at and the things that you're confident in and the things that you're still inspired to more about if you think about that learning process, learning is as natural as rest and play is the quote and the saying, right?

Speaker 3 (48:26):
So it's like allow your intuitions and your instincts to really guide that, Hey, does it make sense for me to present this as a memorize this and then take a quiz and does this make sense for my own ability? Right? Or if you are, because a lot of the content and material that's out there right now is still all about that knowledge exchange. Make plans for yourself if you're a solo agent, for example, of how you can receive that knowledge and then intentionally apply it. How are you actually applying it? How are you actually going through this feedback? So it's a lot of the things that I've discussed at things like Maverick and with those frameworks that there are ways that you can implement this for yourself even if you're not on a team.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
Thank you. And thank you for that correction too. Specific to the context, this is for anyone everywhere. Absolutely. Essentially. So much good language in there. At the risk of running long. One kind of personal ish question that I would love to hear from you on, which is you are obviously an amazing pianist. You've taught music a lot of your career as an entrepreneur has intersected with the arts in general. When I think about what little I know about how learning an instrument or learning a foreign language or learning a new artistically oriented skill does for the human experience and the human brain development, I would love for you to speak especially to the kind of person that art, talk about the importance of arts to the human experience.

Speaker 3 (49:55):
Yeah, I mean, I'll go back even just my experience with education, because obviously it's performance based in arts and music education, but then in my school, obviously building a brick and mortar business in the school service-based business, and then into online programs, digital marketing, and then obviously into instructional design and consulting. So I think there can be that silo of like, well, this is an arts business versus this is a real estate business. But seeing all of the transferable skills and all of the important things that are there, obviously coming from the arts, it's where my heart is and always will be, is in arts education. And specifically honestly, I mean, first of all, music and art is just a human birthright, and it is part of us as human beings. So again, another thing that has happened only in the past century is that people have been told, I'm an artist, and you weren't formally, classically trained for a concert stage, so you are not an artist.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
That's not how it works. It's only been in recent decades that whole separation has taken place. Just like how we talked about, there's that separation of who can teach, who can learn classroom learning, all those different things. So it is an essential part of our birthright as being human beings. But then from a business standpoint, I think there are reasons why people will often hire professionals or their whole medical schools that will have on their application, do you have formal music training? And it's not because it's like a pretentious thing, it's because of the things that we've just talked about. It's because first of all, it can be one of the loneliest disciplines because there's no team getting onto the piano every time you have to practice. It is literally you against yourself. And that's what people don't realize when you talk about solo disciplines, where it's all about the mental game.

Speaker 3 (51:42):
That's what they talk about when they compare team sports versus solo sports. It's like the mental pressure that you experience on a solo sport is going to be highest. So you see that so often in the solo and also in the solo instruments, but then also the habits of being able to shape a skill. So when I moved into, for example, this field in real estate and it's very much a performance-based field, it is so clear how you can shape these skills. And most people, because arts can be kind of mysterious in some ways, they think you must just be born like playing a concerto on stage with orchestra. It's not. You are meticulously shaping skills with intention and you're shaping skills of communication, skills of execution, skills of mental processes. So I always say that there's so many different layers to why arts education is so important, but if you wanted to speak to a business professional who's kind of like, well arts, what does that have to do with anything? There's so much that transfers over and we see very clearly how well those skills transfer into the real estate industry. Obviously.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
Beautifully done. So appreciated. I'm going to get you out of here before we hit the one hour mark. Same to everyone watching and listening. Thank you for spending all of this time with both of us. I hope you've enjoyed this as much as I have three pairs of closing questions, one or the other. What is your very favorite team to root for besides suggest and have a real estate team? Or what is the best team you've ever been a member of as someone who of course has been in this kind of individual practice quite a bit in your life?

Speaker 3 (53:07):
Yes. I'm going to stick with real estate and just the first thing that came to mind when you asked that is our team at Beyond Real Estate, which is our greater group community. We have a group of teams across Canada and the US now, right, with other teams, affinity Real Estate, Ontario and Katrina and the team in British Columbia. And we've really established this kind of team comradery and just partnership in how we can support each other's businesses alongside while we grow alongside each other. So that's actually the first one that came to mind for another team, even though it's still real estate. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (53:41):
Yeah. No, that's fantastic. I love it. What is one of your most frivolous purchases, or what is a cheapskate habit you hold onto even though you probably don't need to? Oh,

Speaker 3 (53:50):
A cheapskate habit is, I'm embarrassed to say I drive until my gas tank is nearly completely empty. I ride the gaslight and I shouldn't, but I will get every drop of gas out of that until I fill up my tank again. That's probably me being a cheapskate. Yes,

Speaker 1 (54:08):
That's like living dangerously too. It's like I've been closer before,

Speaker 3 (54:13):
But I'm just like, no, I think I don't have to fill up yet. There's more in there that I can, it

Speaker 1 (54:17):
Works, yeah's. Amazing. What does it look like for you? What are you doing when you're resting, relaxing and recharging, or what does it look like for you? What are you doing when you are investing time in learning, growing and developing?

Speaker 3 (54:28):
So I'm constantly learning. I love to read everything I said about knowledge-based learning. I mean, I do, knowledge is power. I'm constantly obviously reading and I just enjoy new perspectives quite a lot. And then obviously making sure I try to apply it and then I like to challenge myself. I am physically fit. I like to work out, lift weights, do yoga, play tennis. I believe that rest, there are many different types of rest, and one of the best ways that you can rest is actually by challenging yourself in new fun ways. So getting out and playing some games, playing sports with friends. So I am very intentional about how I rest for sure, because I really value taking care of that.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
Awesome. I so appreciate all of this time. I appreciate the insights. I appreciate you sharing so much of what you've learned. Just even really tip of the iceberg. So if someone wants to learn more about you, the work that you're doing or anything else, where would you send someone to follow up on this conversation?

Speaker 3 (55:22):
So I did want to mention obviously with if you are a solo agent, if you're a team or a brokerage. So whatever layer of that that it is is that we are contributing and sharing how you can organize this framework and build it out for yourself. So that's myself, Justin and John Shela. You can find us@agentdevelopment.com is the website. And then obviously my private consulting is over@carmenmorinconsulting.com.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Awesome. I will link both of those up and I will put that into the intro. By the way, I will not bury it at the 58 minute mark. It's fantastic. I really appreciate you. I hope you have a fantastic rest of your afternoon and we're recording this on a Friday. I hope you have a wonderful weekend.

Speaker 3 (55:59):
Thank you, Ethan. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (56:01):
Thanks for checking out this episode of Team Os. For email exclusive insights every week, sign up@realestateteamos.com.