Speaker 1 (00:01):
No matter where your business is today or where you want to take it, you'll get there faster and more profitably with an operating system. Welcome to Team Os, your guide to starting, growing and optimizing real estate team. Here's your host, Ethan Butte.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Thank you so much for joining me, Kathleen. And I want to start with you where we always start, which is a must have characteristic of a high performing team. When I offer that, what comes to mind?

Speaker 3 (00:26):
It's hard to narrow it down, but I'm going to say standards and vision, right? Because people really do rise to the standards around them. I believe in ecosystems. I mean, last year I talked about it in my keynote. We rise to our environments, we fall to our environments. Everything is community driven. So I think we need to have the foundation and we need to have really high vision and standards to rise to. It's a very simplistic answer for that question, but I'm going to stick

Speaker 2 (00:50):
With it. No, that's good. And it gives us a lot to kind of peel into, which is where I want to go next is standards. Standards. I hear a variety of things. I kind of hear culture like this is just how we do it around here. This is our standard. And then I also hear kind of a modeling, but then I also think it's probably best when it's explicit and stated and where it's people can read it and hear it and see it being behaved and all these other things. Maybe it's communicated on our website, certainly part of our recruiting process and these kinds of things. What does standards mean to you? All those things. Some of those things are one of those things more than other things.

Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, I mean I think we want to have people so rooted down in the standards that they're not even thinking about them. They're reaching up for much higher because if we're looking at our minimums all the time, we're not aspiring for what we could do. So I spend a lot of time in the team world. I mean, that's what I've done. And what we find is sometimes we miss that middle step. You go from solopreneur, the middle step is where you build the foundation, the systems, the processes, the tech, all the things you need to power up other people. And often a high majority of teams will miss that step and then get into this team space. And it's like chaos because we don't have an aligned guiding principles. Maybe we have a mission statement and we have a vision, but we don't know. When you're in a pinch, how do you make decisions and what are our core go-to communication techniques?

Speaker 3 (02:15):
And we hear so much about data right now, which I'm a huge believer in, but once you have the data, we need standards on what are the tools that help us help our consumer? And are they the same across the whole client journey? Usually not. So standards to me are that minimum functioning that we have at the start. So if a new team member is coming into the team, I always say, if you don't do great onboarding, it's like your team's up here, you bring somebody in here, the team is super frustrated because why are we know all this stuff you're pulling down, onboarding can take them up here before they come in. So to me, that's the base standards so we can reach for the summit versus constantly be trying to do we have the equipment, do we know our path? Right? Yeah,

Speaker 2 (02:55):
I've heard that story from a variety of people both observed and lived of all of a sudden we were eight people and we didn't have a lot of the basic foundation. I mean obviously all of it is the best answer, but for people that are recovering from that type of situation, how would you advise in terms of prioritizing or maybe some of the questions you would ask to guide the discovery and diagnosis process for people that have found themselves in that chaotic world? I think it's very common. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
Usually we go back to the base. For me, it's always a domino effect building. So I know certain systems are always going to lead to the next to the next. So I try to find the most pressing, not symptom source. So is the source compensation? That's always a tricky one. Are we overcompensating? Are we under compensating? We're not providing enough value, we're not investing enough back in. And if that's the case, we look at how are we structuring, what are our finances, what are our team agreements, how are we recruiting for us? Those are a domino system for other people. Hey, we have a ton of leads, we think we need more. But it's like, well, we're not converting, so we need an onboarding so that we have basics and then we need constant support because it's an ecosystem. So I'm always looking at what are we investing in, what's working, what's the conversion? But also how are we attracting people? What type of people, how are we setting them up for success? Because I mean, typically I work a lot in Canada, US as well, but I mean the Toronto Real Estate Board, I mean 80% of people could do two deals, three deals. It could take them 15 years to have the data that we actually need. So onboarding gives us the equivalent in six months really to know if somebody's set for success or to help them be set for success.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Really good. So obviously it's not obvious, I'm observing that you were in real estate production yourself as you coach and guide people in teams, you're running a team summit.

Speaker 3 (04:46):
Yeah, we're rebranding this year actually. So I ran eight Canadian team summits and then I ran seven ultimate team summits and now we're running Kathleen Black Summit because everyone calls it that anyway. Awesome. So we have a team of 20 coaches. So I did sell and then I moved into coaching and now I run our coaching. And largely speaking.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
So when, just talk about the team orientation, from your perspective, past, present, future of the team model in real estate, when did it really come onto your radar? What do you think is promising about it and maybe where's it going?

Speaker 3 (05:20):
Yeah, I think it's easy to polarize the team models, right? Because I think in the US we've seen much more of a kind of mega more brokerage style team or team rich, you call it team rich. And in Canada originally we really focused on high performance team, like the lean and mean style. And then now in Canada we have kind of a mix with the different coaching influences. So people taking in those high production systems and then taking in, Hey, we need to recruit more because in this market we're kind of susceptible. So I think it'll be very interesting because we've seen the larger your team is statistically the lower average production per agent. Usually there's some exceptions to this, but not too many. Whereas you see kind of the smaller lean in mean who have the systems. I mean, we've coached teams that have 55 transactions per year as an average across their teams.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
So it'll be very interesting because they both have pros and cons. The lean in mean has they have the same issues of can we adapt our team members into this market? Can we do the walk? Because I mean, I love to hike. I summit Kilimanjaro last year. It's like you can't summit the big mountains. You can't survive in high altitude with people on your back. You just can't do it. So if we're spending too much time trying to get people to walk, get them to pick up their equipment, our entire team suffers. And we're seeing that right now. We're seeing team leaders investing time into people that is impacting the team, but we're unfortunately not impacting the people we're investing in positively, which is really hard as a leader. It's heartbreaking as a leader, you want to help people. So I think we're going to see them be a little bit more susceptible.

Speaker 3 (06:55):
If they don't have enough people, they can have that hit because one producer is covering a lot of volume. But on the other side, the big teams, I mean if your average production per agent is eight, which is not unusual, maybe it was six, maybe it was 10, and all of a sudden that's cut by 40% or 50%. That's a big issue because you don't have that ability to survive to pay your bills. And when there's scarcity, people look for a beacon or they leave the industry, which we're seeing as well. So I think it'll sharpen teams who lean into it. I think they'll become better and we'll see powerhouses coming out of this time because they'll become much more lean and efficient. Even the big ones, I think will in some ways.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, I really appreciate that observation, and I've heard a lot about the messy middle of this journey, and I'm sure you've worked with people in it, the smaller teams potential to be highly profitable, even in tougher situations, margin compressed at the high end, but the volume makes up for that and is still a very lucrative business. But in that middle, there are a number of people who don't make it right. They want to get out of the small for some whatever, compels 'em and they get stuck in the middle. I've even heard it described as a black hole. Have you observed similar and what are some of the cautions for people who are on the edge of let's really kind of lean into this right now? We think we have the foundation to build on, give a couple pieces of advice for that person.

Speaker 3 (08:21):
I think the black hole is real. I think a lot of teams get stuck in that, and not from lack of good intentions just to point out. But that's where we go back to those standards and clarity of vision. Because to me as strong leader, our number one guiding principle for our team is love. And some people are like, oh, really? In business? I'm like, yeah, because love isn't just soft and tender and kind. It's also fears and truthful and advocating. So for us, it's when you have a leader who's in those principles, they say the hard things in a nice way, they're able to make those tough decisions. They understand that if their ship goes down, everybody down. But in the messy middle, I find leaders really get stuck sometimes. They're highly empathetic people and compassionate people and they're like, well, they don't want to do it.

Speaker 3 (09:03):
I don't want to make them. It's like, but then they're not going to make the money. And what about their mortgage and their kids? And then I'm the bad guy, but I'm not. It's just a difference of opinion. So I think in this market, if you're in the messy middle, get really clear on where you're going in the future. Because when we make decisions in fear, I always say you could have a hundred pages of vetted reasons why that decision's a good idea. But you take that decision and you put in a trajectory of five years, 10 years, 20 years, and all of a sudden, all those reasons that fear told you're real are going to fall. I love doing that. So people management is the hardest part for most team leaders. Even for me, with my team, I lean more on the introvert and analytical. So I always ground in where are we going? People are like, well, is that cutthroat? It's business? It's like, no, because if the business isn't strong, if it doesn't serve the business, that person probably isn't going to thrive in our environment, and that's not fair to them or to me. So I think being very clear on where you're going, why, and being willing to have standards that are actually there to help people thrive. That's a beautiful thing in my experience.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah, really good. And you actually really did a nice job of teasing where I wanted to go anyway, which is your own leadership style. How do you describe that? Because so many folks listening to this show and watching it, you're an entrepreneur, you're a team leader. I would call you probably now you're not even real estate adjacent, you're still in and you're doing a lot of, still doing a lot of work with teams.

Speaker 3 (10:29):
My books and my keynotes are not real estate specific. I deal with high performance and mindset. That's my love in life is to shift people. I just love it. That's my passion.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
So your own leadership style because you are an entrepreneur and a team leader yourself.

Speaker 3 (10:42):
Yes. And this is interesting because I was preparing for this event actually with that, and it was like the number one thing is knowing ourselves and dropping the ego of we know everything. And I think when I first got into business, I thought I was supposed to know everything. I didn't know any different. I didn't want anyone to know I had weaknesses or I was struggling. And now the number one thing is, Hey, I'm struggling with this. How are you doing it? So I think knowing ourselves, and for me, I'm a quick work pace, which has been good and bad. So now I have buffer people because I have full reverence and respect for the slower work pace and the details and the announce. I need those people so much. I have such love for those people, but I drive them crazy because I talk fast and I have a big vision.

Speaker 3 (11:24):
We get where you're trying to go, but it's confusing. So now I've learned that I need more of a management relationship based archetype, which is a little more rare, outgoing, but management in buffering between. So my leadership style is very strategic, big vision. We want to change the world. We have a big mission for contribution, and it's very much, I love working with other entrepreneurs who want to show up and want to do the work. I'm not as great sometimes as a leader with people who I can't shift out of a lot of excuses. I find it really tough because we believe in people and we want to help them. And I can't help people argue for their own limitations. I can't do that. And that can seem harsh sometimes.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
Yeah, it's interesting. You're right at the edge of shared accountability as well as personal responsibility. Oh yeah. I mean, you can lay out clear expectations, you can communicate them, you can collaboratively set goals and things, but there's no way that you personally as a leader can cover the personal responsibility gap.

Speaker 3 (12:28):
You can. And I mean, I think we all have unique, I'm a DC personality and disc, but I'm an INTJ in Myers-Briggs, right? So this is a war zone. You want it done perfectly and immediately. And the INTJ in women is like 0.08% of the population. So I mean, feeling misunderstood is normal. You have to just be like, I have these gifts because I think differently and I just have to understand that, right? And I think a lot of leaders are like, oh yeah, that's true. We're not always going to be understood. We all have unique gifts. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
Awesome. I want to draw what I imagine is a fair parallel between your own journey in coaching and leading and guiding people, and generally a high producing real estate agent who says, you know what? I have so much opportunity. I need to either leverage my time with some administrative support. I want to bring a buying agent alongside me in this thing. And we just get going. And at a certain point when a productive team leader decides to leave production, that's like a big leap. And you wonder is the level of service and all the things that I did to build this business and the reputation I built and all these things. Now I'm drawing the parallel to you. I assume that when you started coaching, you didn't have a team of coaches. You maybe had a couple alongside, you set a standard, you built a reputation, you're winning through probably a lot of word of mouth. And now you have a team, I think you said 20 coaches.

Speaker 3 (13:54):
Yeah. Well, and some expert coaches that come in and some full-time.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah. So how do you manage your own initial vision and reputation that's delivered in a very human to human way through a diversity of people who have different profiles from yourself? How important is consistency across that experience from your perspective? Or do you just kind of let it go and accept that when she's going to do it a little bit that way, he's going to be doing it a little bit that way and we're all doing it about the same. And now Kathleen Black means something a little bit different, richer, and we can reach more people. I just observe a tension in that. There's no question formed, I don't think. But is that idea fair and how do you think about that dimension of what you're doing as you scale your own business?

Speaker 3 (14:40):
Yeah, I mean, we purposely model what we coach. So we walk as much as possible. Nobody's perfect, but we model it on purpose because I think I moving from, I win because I'm on the field and I scored the goal or the point or whatever the heck it is, to, oh my gosh, I only win when they win. That sounds obvious, right? Leaders build leaders. That sounds obvious. It is such a difficult transition. I cost my business money because the business was ready to grow. The business was ready to scale. I I had to expand my, that's the honest truth. And now I have compassion for that because that happens with so many of our leaders and in a challenging market, they're like, I'm going to dive back in and again put you all on my back. And it's like, whoa, we have to have a strong bench.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
So yeah, I practice what I preach in that our coaches all go through pretty strenuous onboarding. They need to know all of our systems and team systems. It's massive. But I learned something very important from myself. Ironically, this is not an egotistical way of saying it, but I was on stage at our ultimate team summit and I was talking about when you bring in a sales agent, our goal is to get them 98% or onboarding 80% coming out the door compared to all other agents in the area. And people are like, that's not realistic. I'm like, yes, it is. Because if you take the core things that they do and you take away all the other noise that we want to throw in there because we don't know what to onboard people on. So it's like, let's just use these 300 things. And instead we're like, we're going to make them laser focused on the core skill sets and test them and encourage 'em and then support them as they go out there in those core things.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
We are going to have people, again, 80% coming into the team, and then they just go up and up and half the people won't even survive that training. They won't pass it, they can't show up. But I had the aha on stage of like, oh my gosh, you're trying to take, at this point, it's 15 years of full-time team coaching and transfer this to every coach. I'm like, what are you doing? I always talk about the genius of the Ford model, but the problem was we lack the reverence for people and powering and valuing quality people. And it's just so important. I'm talking about this and the aha goes off, and now we have experts. So I have two experts who do compensation structures for teams. Nobody else touches it because they're analytical and it's so important you don't want to screw it up. So they all have their own expertise and they bring their genius. I

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Love this idea of expertise within the team that are called in as needed rather than trying to coach and train everyone to some same standard because then everyone's going to have their own little pockets and strengths. And I think we all tend to lean into the things that we're confident in and good at. And so I'm not going to talk about comm structure. I'm not going to bring up the conversation. I'm not comfortable in it. No, actually we have someone's, this idea of this is one of the things that's so wonderful about teams in general is that we build them intentionally and support one another's strengths. Absolutely. I appreciate that approach. For the person watching or listening, who is a solo agent, thinking about starting a team, maybe what questions would you ask them or what would you advise them to make sure they're clear on as they're in the decision making process about whether to make that commitment?

Speaker 3 (17:44):
And I wrote my first book, top 1% Life because when I started coaching, I was coaching with really busy top producers. A lot of them didn't necessarily have admins, and I was able to walk that journey and now I can't go back. So I wrote the book for that, and we have a chapter on it in analyzing exactly that. What's your production levels? How much are you making per hour? And most of the time right now we're in a market shift, so I'd be extra, I'm big into educated risk risk, but educated risk. So I'd ask a few more questions. But typically what we found in the last 10 years, most of the people are hesitating to hire admins who are actually producing well. They actually were demoting themselves by not hiring that admin. They needed that leverage. And I mean, when we look at women in the industry, the statistics are very clear.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
They're doing phenomenally higher percentages of things outside of their career before they come in, but they're hiring help at half the rate. This is so important to know to say, well, I'm doing more, but I'm getting less help and I'm hesitating to get that help. So it's a different conversation for women in leadership. So we really look at their life, not just their business. Like, Hey, if you're doing kid drop off and you're doing laundry and you're doing this, that counts. Put all the things that you're doing, and then what are your hours worth and what's your energy? What's your energy? Because for me, as a leader being my personality, it took me a long time before I actually heard, are you having fun? I didn't even process this. I was like, what do you mean fun? This has to be done. And now I'm like, oh, that makes me tired.

Speaker 3 (19:11):
Why am I doing that? Costing me the things I need to do? And I think there's both, there's the energy conversation, there's the time conversation, there's the money conversation. So we look at what do you making, what is it worth in the market to have somebody else do the other things? And now today compared to when I started, there's so many ways to leverage things out with technology and VAs and so many things that are reasonable. So we assess and run all those numbers, or they can do, it's on Audible, use the book to go through exactly our process. I don't have an hour or two right now. And to move forward, I think I'm tempted to say, be more careful in this market. But the truth is you need leverage even more in this market because if you don't have the time to be face-to-face and you can't be there with clients, you're going to suffer. And that's going to cost you a lot more for most people watching this.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
Yeah. You mentioned fear a bit earlier, and I think a lot of it is in fear, and I think some of it is in, I see the cost and I'm over weighing the cost. I'm not recognizing the full benefit. And also, you did a nice job of breaking down. You're not doing a full accounting of all the other pieces that are in play. And so it's the we're not going to have fun all the time. No,

Speaker 3 (20:16):
We're not, but

Speaker 2 (20:16):
We going to have a little bit more fun, a little bit more than we are. Awesome. And I'll link the book up adjacent to wherever folks are watching and listening to this. Kathleen, this has been an absolute pleasure. I appreciate you so much, and I would love for you to share either a very frivolous purchase you've made or a cheapskate habit that you continue to hold onto, even though you probably don't need to.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
You know what? It's funny, it's two sides of the same coin because people get into the designer stuff. And again, I work with a lot of powerful women and I'll walk in and be like, okay, I'm going to buy the purse. I'm going to do it. And then inside I'm like, I'd rather go on a trip. I'd rather go hike another mountain, right? So I'll do it a little bit. So I bought something like that, which people would watch me, are you crazy? But to me, because I built my business as a single mom, I joke for me, I like the Warren Buffett way. I lived across the street from school right next to the childcare and I could walk three blocks to my office. That's not an accident. So I've been really not frivolous. I've been really careful with time, energy, and money because honestly, I wouldn't have been able to compete in business the way that I had if I was stressing about money to pay my mortgage or are my kids. So I had to level the playing field a little bit. So I'm really frugal with a lot of things still because I value experiences and freedom and I don't care about a lot of the other stuff other than my son convinced me to buy a Porsche. I don't regret that. So some people might call me on that one and I love it every time I drive

Speaker 2 (21:44):
It. Yeah, that's awesome. I'm a big consumer reports reader and they're very favorable on the Porsche brand over the past five years. So smart purchase

Speaker 3 (21:52):
Too. Thank you. I enjoy

Speaker 2 (21:54):
It. Cool. Thank you so

Speaker 3 (21:55):
Much. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
Thanks for checking out this episode of T Os. Get quick insights all the time by checking out real estate team Os on Instagram and on TikTok.